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March 02, 2016

Comments

I have two minds about this. Yes, I agree that he should probably fold his fucking tent and quit bashing Hillary. That only hurts the democrats in the general. But, being a Californian, and not getting the chance to vote until June 7, the primaries will be well over by then. It's pretty much over now. And it's only March 2. The only way our votes have any meaning at all is in who gets our delegates. Bernie has said that California is one of the states where he's counting on winning, but really, even the most populous state in the union can't save him now. He's just California dreaming at this point.

Now, I'm curious to know something else. Mitch McConnell has said that if Donald Drumpf wins the nomination, they will "drop him like a hot rock". Could that mean that if we are saddled with a president Drumpf, that he could face a congress just as obstructionist as the one Obama faced? Or will he turn despot to the point that we won't even have an election in 2020? This is where I think the congressional races are much more interesting than the presidential one. Right wing senators who rode the wave into office in the great tea bag infestation of 2010, are getting very nervous. They won on a "throw the bums out" mid term election in 2010 never once thinking that they themselves would be seen as the bums that they are six years later.

Fattish chance. Bernie Sanders is a human being who is now getting more attention and campaign money than he ever dreamed of in a very long political career. He has no record of achievement to run on because he was never a member of a party that achieved anything. And he has only one campaign note to sound which is that the Democratic party and its leading candidate is essentially corrupt. He has no where to go and no way to back down from his stated position on the party he wants to lead. That's the party that just wasn't good enough for him to join until he decided to run for its top job. And he has the money and will continue to raise money only to do what he is doing. There is a perfectly noble excuse for him to keep doing what he is doing and no reason for him to stop doing it. If you really believe that you are more noble than all other politicians then your better angels are almost certainly going to tell you to forge on.

Sadly, he reminds me of one of those televangelists that preach the prosperity gospel and tell their rubes that if they just give all their money to the church, they will become wealthy beyond their wildest dreams. Only in Bernie's case it's free college which is just as impossible.

So let us consider Oklahoma, where Bernie won, and Massachusetts, where he did not. He id not win in Mass. because the votes he did get were mostly from the white working class voters and the youth vote that did not turn up en masse to make the difference. Most of the middle class took a pass. In Oklahoma where the Democratic party is a tiny shadow of a thing the same prevailed and it was enough to win. The working class voters make up a much bigger percentage of the electorate there. Does this augur well for Bernie? Not really and for the same reason Donald Trump's success with the hundred or so Hispanics who voted for him in Nevada does not translate into electoral success with the majority of Hispanics. Bernie and Donald are fighting over the same demographic of white working class voters. And Donald is winning that numerical battle hands down. As Hillary will with Hispanics.

Yes, Heaven forfend we have a democratic debate in the US, especially over openly discussed, dangerous, Euro-hippie ideas. Hillary should have gotten out of Obama's way, or vice versa, sooner too.

I don't have a problem if Bernie stays in as long as he can afford to stay in as long as he stops attacking Clinton about campaign financing. That will be a Trump trope, too. Plus, he should back off on the fund raising himself. I don't like the idea of true believers scraping together dollars to give to a hopeless cause.

But its over. At this point, even setting aside the super delegates (and they won't be set aside) Bernie has to win 53% of the pledged delegates left before he can even pretend the establishment is stealing the nomination. And with every primary that he does not win 53% of the delegates, the percentage he needs from the remaining states keeps getting larger. Clinton was never this far behind Obama.

The media can pretend it is a race for another couple of weeks. Once even pretense becomes impossible, it won't matter whether he stays in or not. Nobody will pay any attention to him, not when there is Donald Trump and the Republicans to cover.

The Democratic race will become an asterisk in the coverage. Bernie's political revolution will go out with a whimper, and not with a bang.

I don't give a crap about any hypothetical debate. I do give a crap about the votes Sanders and Trump are clearly competing for now, white working class voters. If Bernie succeeds in convincing them the Democrats have betrayed them then why wouldn't they vote for Trump? His pie in the sky seems to be a more popular flavor than Bernie's. Trump is getting increased turnout from that demographic and Bernie isn't. He's just taking what the Democrats already had. They probably won't decide the presidency but they will decide a lot of congressional districts and senate seats. They don't have to lose many of these people to Trump to harm down ticket prospects.

As I have had pains to point out here and elsewhere at no time in the fierce battle between Clinton and Obama did either tell the public how awful the Democrats were if they didn't vote for either of them. You can lead a party or you can attack a party but you can't do both. Bernie is not running as a Democrat. He is running as an Independent who is trying to use the Democrats. I rest my case.

I did donate to Bernie's campaign, but will now ignore his pleas. Still, I don't regret it. He seems to have caused a slight shift to the left in Clinton's famous triangulation.

Sooner or later, Bernie will be on stage with Hillary for his Kumbayah moment. Sooner may be better, or not, but it will happen.

And a good if narrow technical case it is. However, why *shouldn't* people in CA have a chance to vote for Bernie if he can stay in? How determining a factor is party loyalty in this year's campaign? Why shouldn't the public discuss the Democratic party's abandonment of it's "values" or adoption of new policies?

If Trump should stop fund raising why should Hillary's fund raising be off limits? If US democracy is all about money now, why shouldn't true believers have their own version of a super pac?

Trump is going to take the "Hillary is corrupt" meme and run with it. I don't care whether Trump fund raises or not. I just want Bernie to stop helping Trump with his attacks on Clinton. Trump can merely echo those attacks. He isn't corrupt. He isn't even asking for small donors like Bernie. He is spending his own money.

It is Bernie and Bernie's fund raising. If he keeps asking for money while pretending he can win, he is ripping off his donors.

Someone please riddle me this: Since Hillary has withstood decades of all types of embarrassment, defamation, denigration, smears and hatchet jobs by Republicans and other Democrats, why would anyone think Bernie could hurt her? How did one old, independent politician from a small state get to be a super villain?

Trump is probably going to throw everything anyone has thought of since Hillary was First Lady of Arkansas in 1979 plus lots of his own stuff.

Bernie has stopped saying he can win, at least in what I've seen and read lately. He says it's about a revolution, which is somewhat less bullshitty. Like it or not the voters should have their say.

And that's a damn good point too. Why shouldn't they? Put this down as yet another awful feature of the American primary system. Politics is rough and tumble and the Canadian system of selecting party heads can be every bit as vicious as anything seen here. The difference is that they almost always occur after a party has lost big in an election whether they formed the government or not. And not before an election. That takes about a year to organize and gives them at least three years and possibly four to get their act together. and they do it all at once across the country at a leadership convention. You don't do fratricide just before an election if you want to win. They also get to test their strategies in the inevitable by-elections for seats that occur as members retire from office.

On the whole I am grateful I do not have to defend the American primary system for as Mark Twain would have said, It is too many for me.

It's pretty simple Bob. Trump is talking to Republicans about how evil Hillary is and Bernie is talking to Democrats about how evil Hillary is and a minority of them at that. The argument that Bernie is making Clinton stronger by stabbing her in the back while the Republicans are stabbing her in the front has exactly no appeal except to people who really really want to stab Clinton. It doesn't make the party stronger. It doesn't pull the party to the left. It forces Bernie himself to attack Obama who, guess what, took money from Wall st and the results are quite clear from the election results among Blacks. If Hillary is corrupt then so is Obama.It certainly didn't help that Bernie called for Obama to be primaried in 2012 and it is going to help even less when, after failing to get the Black vote, Bernie calls for the Black Democratic caucus to be deprived of the super delegates they have so righteously earned. If Bernie wants to stick around and kiss that particular third rail I won't have the slightest sympathy for him.

He is not a super villain. His campaign is a fraud in my opinion, but it is a well meaning fraud. He can do whatever he wants.

If he was a Democrat, I'd expect him to see the handwriting on the wall. He can stay in and he can run his campaign to get his message out. But he should go back to what he was saying at the beginning of the campaign: that he was not going to run a negative campaign.

If he wanted to stick around and do that all day every day he'd have my blessing for the little it is worth. That would be a very useful thing to do.

How can this not be obvious? If it isn't going to hurt her then why is he doing it? The pure pleasure of it? The whole point of trying to damage Clinton's credibility and integrity is to contrast it with his own hypothetical superiority. Life is certainly great for independents if you can get a lock on an incumbency. You get to vote with the Republicans on gun control and to kill immigration reform because all you have to worry about is the folks back home in Vermont. You never have to make a deal with other factions in your party never mind anyone else because you don't have a party. This has got to be the cushiest job in politics. You don't have to take a nickel from the NRA you can just cave into them on principal so you can get reelected. You can't do anything without being elected right? But once elected you still can't do anything about gun control can you because then you might not get re-elected. I detect a pattern here and it doesn't include moral superiority.

Bernie doesn't want to lead the party, he wants to destroy it, except as it serves his purpose. He disdains the system, apparently any system.

America has been, by and large, able to maintain its status as a great nation because it has a system through which lawful and thoughtful change occurs. Imperfect, yes. Messy, absolutely. But although it should forever be open to improvement, its stability is the core of our greatness. It is nothing to be tossed away.

The notion that chaos and destruction lead to utopia is patent nonsense. I'm really sick of those children who advocate for it, and I'm disgusted with grown people who should know better. You're not just testing your pet theories, you are playing with the lives of millions of people.

If Bernie was really a man of vision, he would see the consequences of his rhetoric and as p.m. said, his deceit. I'm not saying he should quit. But I sure would like to see an inkling of his embrace of the big picture, and be a big man. So far, I have been shocked at how petty he is.

He'll do it at the convention, and then he'll go home. Bernie has done absolutely zero to help anyone get elected, ever, even socialists in VT.

Hillary, who I loathed in 2008, turned on a dime and supported PBO. She is first and foremost, a Democrat. I have repeatedly said that Hillary had a chance to match greatness in 2008, and instead she went into the gutter. It is to my immense surprise that I find her in 2016, someone I can increasingly support. Much of the criticism of her is based on past assumptions. Look at her now with an open mind and she is warm, genuine, more comfortable in her skin. Her intelligence is clear. She has moments of actual eloquence. She has grown, and that is a quality I want in POTUS. She is the only candidate in either party who is competent to lead the nation. I am at the very least comfortable with her (which I never thought I would be). And I am growing increasingly proud to support her.

I started sending her small donations a few weeks ago, and I'm glad to do it.

It seems obvious Bernie's "attacks" aren't going to amount to anything in the big picture. The 2008 election got nasty and Democrats worked it out eventually. Politics ain't beanbag.

His disdain for Hillary is also his disdain for the party. Where is the line that should not be crossed, where trying to win hurts your party's chances in the GE?

I think the biggest surprise to everyone is how much that matters to Democrats. I'm surprised myself, how offended I am that Bernie becomes a convenient Democrat for 5 minutes, continues to sneer and damage the party. Not now. Not with fascists at our gate, unless you really want a collapse. Outrageous.

We agree Bernie should lighten up. Maybe the attacks from the Clinton campaign are getting under his skin. Some have been completely dishonest and no doubt hard to take.

So Bernie has motivated you to defend Democrats and helped them with at least one person. If you have any evidence he's actually harmed the party I'd like to see it.

If you do see it then it will be on election day. And the turn out for certain demographic groups will tell the story. At which point there is fuck all you can do about it.

Hey the link says revival tent but the title up top doesn't. What's up with that?

BTW... it's funny as hell to watch two disparate groups of white folks in America whining about how they're getting fucked.

Pretty much.

Truer words have never been typed.

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