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Your host, PM 'Papa' Carpenter
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« My GOP congressman's town hall meeting, sans a meeting | Main | Trump's oddly exhausted CPAC speech »

February 23, 2017

Comments

Trump just happened to be the alternative any one else that emphasized the economy would have won.Voters in my state just saw primarly lower incomes getting healthcare and the banks and wealthy bailed out but little for the middle that has been declining for years.

> Their utter unsuitability for national governance is becoming undeniable to nearly any Trump voter who voted for Trump

This assumes that Trump voters are accessing the information that demonstrates unsuitability. I'm guessing that these voters don't pay attention to news in general, and those that do are going to Fox News, Limbaugh, etc. If that's the case, then they'll never know that it is undeniable. Ever. When the day for impeachment comes they'll be surprised, and after that day it will just be one more reason to hate filthy liberals for destroying this good country.

Your last paragraph sums it up for me at this time. I do know Trump voters, and most of them are actually nice people, just not with much of a clue. I see them as being converted once things get bad enough.

I don't know...Does letting nature take its course necessarily mean that Trump or Republican voters are going to switch to Democrats? I am curious to know how many of the people protesting and demanding town halls voted for Trump or any of the cowardly Republicans that will not face the public?

Every comment so far as nailed an important point. Electoral victory requires that some of the people who voted for Trump be brought back into the Democratic tent. But there is no reason the Democrats cannot be selective about this. Fortunately the most committed Trump voters happen to be the ones the Democrats do not want. Let the Republicans keep their deplorables.

There is a strategy that answers and would satisfy both sides of this argument. Play the ideology and not the man. On an individual basis name calling is seldom successful in persuading anyone to change their minds. But making the Republicans a club in which people do not want to be members is an entirely different matter.

It is an indisputable fact that Donald Trump just spent as much tax money in a month transporting Trump and his progeny around the world than Obama spent in a average. year. No true Trump supporter believes that. And this is the sort of useful litmus test for identifying and separating the wheat from the chaff and crafting assaults that leave the chaff exactly where it should be.

Right now there are probably very, very few Trump voters protesting at these town halls. These are energized Democrats (who may have regretted not voting) and independents (ditto).

Timing matters. You made me recall something Tip O'Neil said a few months after Nixon resigned: it was like squeezing a pimple: it's all in the timing. I reiterate "once things get bad enough": if in November, 2018 the economy is as hunky-dory as it is now; if we are not in any more wars, then we have a heavier lift to regain the House (much less the Senate). On the other hand, we can count on these clown making a colossal mess of things - bad for our country - but it ought to keep "our" base energized and turn out to vote. There is simply no substitute for winning back Congress, and in four years the Presidency.

PM is spot on. Democrats need some coherent programs, not "outreach" and I wouldn't use the word "compromise", because its beside the point. If Trump tries to do something Democrats agree with, it probably splits the Republicans anyway. Trump made some campaign promises Democrats need to support, infrastructure, leaving social security, medicare and Medicaid alone and keeping people insured via the ACA still insured. Either he does some of those things in direct conflict with his appointees and the legislative branch -- good for America, bad for Republicans and useful to Democrats OR he gives in to the GOP DC establishment, America loses, Trump's credibility is damaged with everyone but the GOP faithful and the Democrats get a much needed boost.

And PM is also right to call out the "straw man" arguments of the punditocracy -- who will surely continue the slaughter of armies of straw men over ideology, the Democratic primary system, the horror of Trump etc. etc. Here's the thing, we have an authoritarian President of whom the members of the dominant political party approve (~90% among Republicans) and that party is one state legislature away from having the power to call Constitutional Convention. Feels like potential for trauma that makes the this month's GOP cluster fuck look like minor mischief.

A balanced budget amendment (more sinister minds can imagine more sinister agendas) for instance could screw over our economic future, because people are too simple minded to either appreciate that some % of GDP in debt is sensible or else too delusional to realize that deficits do matter -- to some degree. Of course deficits created building infrastructure to improve productivity are quite distinct from deficits created to fight unnecessary wars.

The Democrats really do need to win some elections out in fly over country, which I apologize for making a theme of every comment I post.

You are right to raise the alternative fact, Faux news universe -- for some people it's like Hotel California -- they can check out but never really leave. But we don't need a lot of Trump supporters to disbelieve everything, just some Trump voters to turn on the GOP and/or Trump, plus a few more Democrats showing up, some more rational independents, showing up. Elections get won at the margins. Trump won Montana by 20% but Democrats are a force in the state nevertheless. As I keep saying, the fact the Democrats lost the military vote to a guy who has never sacrificed or shown any courage in any context beyond threatening his bankers, and for that matter the Democrats lost Dearborn Michigan, an Arab community is multiple clues they're doing more wrong than just not being left wing enough.

I agree. It is a great mystery to me how many people are nice people in personal relationships, but once they get beyond this to groups that they don't know personally, their agreeableness disappears. It's gotten to the point where I don't want to know if some of my friends and acquaintances voted for Trump, because if I did know that, I would be much less interested in conversing with them.

I'm with Blow. Resist. I personally will not settle for fascism-lite, even though that is likely what we will get.

Well, besides the Wall, it seems like the Trump-Sessions infrastructure plan is for more private prisons.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/doj-private-prisons-sessions_us_58af529ce4b0a8a9b780669a?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009

So yeah. Let's put people back to work by building the prisons that will be needed to incarcerate us. Probably not our skin color, at first, but Blow's color, I'm thinking. When we "compromise" with this, eventually skin color won't matter to the thought police.

I don't compromise with bigotry and stupidity, not even for the mirage of future electoral gains if we did. Enough!

So I just read an interesting article on the latest Trump stupidity and it reminded me of an historical precedent. And the reason I point it out is my slight disagreement with PM. Yes indeed it is important to let Trump become synonymous with simple minded incompetence. No argument there. But I do think it neccessary to relentlessly point out the whats and whys of any particular incompetence.

Now it seems that the Trump administration believes they can just dump any illegally or undocumented alien in Mexico regardless of their country of origin. But Mexico is not obligated to accept any of them not identified as Mexican citizens. Furthermore the extensive efforts by the Mexican government to prevent migrants from their South to enter Mexico could cease.

What did this remind me of? Back towards the end of the Reagan administration a zero tolerance policy towards drug possession required the seizure of vehicles at the borders if so much as a marijuana seed was found in it. And that's what they did. And what happened was they wound up with acre after acre of vehicles with disputed titles, mostly junkers, that nobody wanted but were costing a small fortune to store and guard. It was a disaster as a policy. Now imagine that with humans instead of cars. Something tells me it is going to cost a lot more to store and feed these captured aliens while everything gets sorted out. Gone are the days when the American government could just invade Mexico and drop them in the middle of a desert.

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